Help offset server costs by donating. This is totally optional. Any overages will go to library fines or new books.
Shadow of the Torturer chapters five to eight
Severian is sent on an errand to the master curator to pick up picks for a new privileged political prisoner, Thecla. Delivering them himself by request, he forms a connection with her. Thecla is to be treated well ("but not too well") and have her wishes taken care of for the present, and Severian is to continue to see her and converse. She is a high-ranking political prisoner.
Severian is also sent to a brothel, it appears as an attempt to dissuade him from getting too close to Thecla.
Comments
We got some worldbuilding in these chapters, both about the long history of Urth (such as the paining of the astronaut on the moon, contrasted with its contemporary terraformed state) and the current political situation (the connections between Thecla, Thea, and Vodalus, though we still don't know what Vodalus is up to).
Apart from that, not much really happens. We get a good sense of place from the trip to the lower rooms of the library, the mentions that the cells in the tower are all made of metal, and the descriptions of the wider city. But I'm starting to ask myself, "So what?" Hopefully things will start happening soon!
Ch. 5a
I'm a sucker for hallways lined with paintings. It works in Harry Potter and it works here. And if you didn't recognize this one right away, you were asleep at the wheel.
(I couldn't find one with Urth rising in the background as described by the cleaner.)
Note, Fechin is a real artist. Nicolai Fechin, 1881-1955. But I couldn't find one of three women dressing another.
Google Image search for Nicolai Fechin.
Ch. 5b
Yeah, buddy. Been there.
Also, this sentence is a mess:
Ch. 6
I love how focused each chapter is. The last one was "paintings," and this one is "books."
This was cool:
And this (game-able!) bit:
I want to read:
I liked this discussion a lot:
That explains why the Resurrection spell works in D&D when you only have a finger. LOL
And this killer line!
> Ch. 6
>
> I love how focused each chapter is. The last one was "paintings," and this one is "books."
Kinda like Moby Dick!
@dr_mitch Is it a case of the moon .now. having trees, or a case of .this. moon having trees. I imagine this as a sequel to the ..book of the long sun.. in which humans reach into the stars. Can someone in the know comment?
I assumed from the name (Urth) and the single moon, that this was, in fact, Earth. I am probably wrong.
It definitely is. But I doubt The Citadel is really the Smithsonian. Because I know Urth is Earth, though, it makes me look for identifiable things.
I wouldn't be surprised to get a chapter on whales and/or cannibals.
> @clash_bowley said:
> I assumed from the name (Urth) and the single moon, that this was, in fact, Earth. I am probably wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> It definitely is.
Why definitely? This being the book of the .New. Sun I assumed we were in another solar system. The name ‘earth’ or ‘urth’ Seems eminently transportable to some new planet, just as London and Paris made it to Ontario intact.
Intact? Seemed to be missing a few bits when I went through! Not as bad a replication as the Maine instantiation of Paris and London, though.
For me it's established (as much as anything in this book is "established") pretty clearly when they are looking at the painting which is clearly analogous to the first man on the moon photos. I was already convinced that's what the painting-photo was, then the go into a lot of detail about the moon. And then the cleaner says:
I suppose it could be a parallel dimension Earth.
I read the Long Sun some years ago. Yes, it happens on a tube-shaped colony ship. People live on the inner surface and the core is a long strip of artificial light that serves as the sun. I found it to be a slog, but I would be willing to try it again.
I found chapters 7 and 8 interesting and poignant, but I don't feel like I have a lot to say about them. The world gets a bit more real and a little less fantastical in these chapters.
I kind of felt the same. Yes, there's loads of world-building going on, but some of the episodes seem to be blind alleys and I wasn't sure if I needed to keep track of the things in them or not. Take for example the dog - is this a Chekhov dog (so to speak) which will turn up like Androcles' lion at some future stage, or is it simply there to show me that Severian has something in him other than unthinking adherence to the rule of his guild?
I enjoyed these chapters. There was a lot of mood, some philosophy, some tantalising hints about Severian's path and character, and about the world. And not so much plot, which was perhaps exposed by the nature of the slow read, but I'm personally fine with that. That said, the next set of chapters brings some interesting developments.
In terms of the world actually being Earth, there are so far no geographical details in the text which scream it out to me except for one....the Moon. It's the same size as Earth's moon in the sky. That must be rare astronomically, right? Certainly there's nothing nearly comparable elsewhere in the solar system...unless we count Pluto, the other planets have tiny moons.
I mean, what are the odds that a random colonised planet would have such a satellite?
Discussion of the next four chapters:
https://www.ttrpbc.com/discussion/223/shadow-of-the-torturer-chapters-nine-to-twelve
I don't think we can answer that just now - certainly what you say is right for the solar system, but we have xero information about satellite size for Earth-sized planets in other solar systems. If current solar system formation models are right, then the moon being the size it is is something of a fluky combination of events, so you could well be right. But I wouldn't like to bet on it!
Re Pluto, then yes absolutely this is the stand-out example of a large moon - Charon is large enough that the mutual centre of gravity is outside Pluto's surface. So strictly speaking both revolve around a common centre, rather than Charon around Pluto - purists argue that it should be considered a binary planet rather than planet + moon. But as we know, infinite are the arguments of mages... Oddly (and yes, I did the calculations for this in connection with a piece of writing). the brightness of Pluto from Charon is not very different from that of our moon from the Earth, once you've adjusted for different sizes, orbital distances, distance to the sun and whatnot. It subtends a lot more sky, so it will be quite a sight as and when people get to see it.
But that's slightly off the point of Shadow of the Torturer...
@RichardAbbott I agree- it's very far indeed from conclusive. Just a maybe, and who knows how correct our solar system formations are (or for that matter are in the universe of the New Sun).
And that's some interesting insight on Pluto and Charon. I knew Charon was sufficiently massive compared to Pluto that the centre of the mass of the two was outside of both bodies, but the brightness calculation is new to me. I also hadn't previously considered the size of Charon in Pluto's sky. You've now made the idea of visiting Pluto compelling to me, for the first time!
Definitely way off topic...
LEXICON
Lansquenets is a French spelling of German 'Landsknecht' mercenary soldiers.
Fulgorating: Resembling lightning; -- used to describe intense lancinating pains accompanying locomotor ataxy.
Khaibit: from Egyptian mythology, a part of the soul. "The Khaibit is the shadow of a person who leads an independent life and can leave the body and return at will, he also takes part in the offerings addressed to the dead." (Messack Pock in African Conception of Man)
Chatelaine: A woman in charge of a house or castle - i.e. a female castellan.
Refulgent: Shining brightly
Urticate: to cause a stinging or prickling sensation like that given by a nettle.
Salpinx: a trumpet-shaped tube, from Greek for trumpet.
Bordereau: a detailed note or memorandum of account
Echopraxia: the involuntary mirroring of an observed action - funny name for a brothel.
Fiacres: a small four-wheeled carriage for public hire.
Algedonic: pertaining to both pleasure and pain.
Omophagist: one who eats raw meat.
There's also a mention of a Iubar Street, a tree-line street down which the Librarians have a procession. Iubar is a Latin noun meaning: 1. radiance of celestial bodies, light, splendor, sunshine, or 2. (figuratively) a splendid appearance, glory, splendor. Iubhar is Scottish Gaelic for a Yew tree, so perhaps here both meanings are intended.
In Chapter V we learn that the Feast of Holy Katharine is one of the most important days to the Torturers. It's interesting, though, that their patroness is a saint who was resistant to torture. From Wikipedia:
"Of the trail of ink there is no end," Master Ultan told me. "Or so a wise man said. He lived long ago—what would he say if he could see us now?"
I looked for a reference to this, but couldn't find this as a historical quote by anyone other that Wolfe. Any ideas?
"The warm commerce" is an interesting euphemism for sex.
The Corpse Eaters described in chapter VI are interesting.
"It is said that by devouring the flesh of the dead, together with a certain pharmacon, they are able to relive the lives of their victims."
And then follows the questions by Severian about how much of a person must be eaten to get the entire life.
"Everything's getting smaller. Not much anybody can do about that. Less food means fewer people until the New Sun comes"
Here, I think, we have the first reference to the New Sun, and it's a reference to something to come in the future. Does local wisdom tell that a new sun will follow the old? Are we actually talking about a star, or does sun refer to something else, here, like the Autarch. We've also already seen a hint that there will be a new Autarch coming, in the form of Severian, right? But I don't find any etymological support for this argument.
Great comments @Apocryphal! I looked up a lot of those words too. I'm glad you put the definitions in here. I also wondered about that 'coming of the New Sun' ideology. I figure it's one of two things – a) as you speculate, some kind of belief that the sun will renew in the future or b) some kind of fatalist saying akin to "when pigs fly" referencing an event that will never happen.
When pigs fly makes sense.
@Apocryphal Thank you for the definitions. Great to have as reference. Just heard a podcast with Monte Cook and he mentioned reading this series and having his vocabulary expanded in a monumental way.
On this section I had the following observations:
What was the largest ordinance fired during the celebrations? There is a huge tease as to what the nature of the tech in the citadel actually is.
Paintings were very clever and folks are spot on about the moon landing being depicted.
Fuligin, how appropriate
This library is the city library ... the contents of our fortress far exceeds their container. The expansive nature of knowledge?
Our concern is with the books themselves and not the contents. The very siloed nature of the guilds.
“To me the most interesting is that of the Historians, which tells of a time in which every legend could be traced to half-forgotten fact. You see the paradox, I assume. Did that legend itself exist at that time? And if not, how came it into existence?” Wow what a great set of questions!